Welcome to UnF*ck Your Brain. I’m your host, Kara Loewentheil, Master Certified Coach and Founder of the School of New Feminist Thought. I’m here to help you turn down your anxiety, turn up your confidence and create a life on your own terms, one that you’re truly excited to live. Let’s go.

Alright, my friends, welcome. This is a different kind of guest than I usually have, I would say because this is someone who I actually knew before I ever became a coach. And possibly the only ‘coach’ that my father knew at the time that I decided to quit law and become a life coach. So, it’s probably only thanks to Jerry, who’s here with us today, that my father didn’t have a total heart attack when I told him what I was going to do. So, I’m very excited to have Jerry Colonna and I also just realized I didn’t ask you how to pronounce your name before we did this. Is that right?

Jerry: Well, you pronounced it incredibly well, so thank you for that.

Kara: Perfect. Alright, then we’re just going to keep rolling with that. And so, before we even get into your new book and leadership, all the juicy stuff we’re going to talk about today. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do and how you got to where you are?

Jerry: Sure. Well, the first thing I will say is I did perform CPR on your father. No, I’m kidding.

Kara: Oh, when he heard. Okay, I missed the story, my God.

Jerry: No. We had a pre-existing relationship, if you will, a pre-existing condition. And it’s been a delight to have you join what I often refer to as the avengers, the group of people who are sort of out there to really, to borrow your phrase to un-fuck the world in many ways. Because what we’re trying to do is really meaningful. So yeah, I’m an executive coach. I have been doing this work now for 27 years. Prior to that, I was a venture capitalist, so I was on the dark side. I was part of the Sith Lord.

Kara: So, my brothers joined the dark side now too. We all have a dark side in our families.

Jerry: That’s right. Actually, relevant to this, what happened was that in my late 30s, the experience of being an investor was so contrary to my internal sense of values that the more success I had the worse I felt. And I got to this point where I literally couldn’t live with myself and a lifelong relationship with depression had caught up to me. And rather than take my life, which is what I was considering at 38, I actually stopped everything. As I often say, sat on my ass until I could figure shit out.

And what I emerged as from that time period was this odd combination of Buddhists or whatever I am, business expert in whatever way that I am, and coach. And really focused on a very simple way of understanding this, which is that better humans make better leaders. And as simplistic as that is, that is fucking hard because as you well know, un-fucking yourself and growing the heck up and becoming a fully grown adult is a really hard process because it requires one to actually confront oneself.

And as you’ve done so well in your book, the world at large and the way the world kind of doesn’t want us to do the thing that we need to do, which is to grow into ourselves.

Kara: Yeah. Before we get into leadership, I’d love to hear more about that sort of experience of, I think what in medicine at least, they call moral injury. Which is having to do your job in a context in which you feel you’re betraying your values by performing your job well or vice versa. I think a lot of women because women are so socialized to just do what they’re told and follow the path and not even sure what their own values or purpose are.

And then sort of get to their 30s or 40s, go through this kind of similar reckoning often. I would love to hear, when you reach that crisis moment, you’re like, “Okay, something has to be different. I have to stop what I’m doing.” What was that journey or that liminal period like for you of trying to figure out what came next or not trying to figure out and just letting it arise?

Jerry: It was more the latter than the former. I mean the hallmark and this is for those of us and I will acknowledge that I identify as male. I identify as cisgender white and from Brooklyn. That’s all one big thing. For those of us who are socialized as I was in a male patriarchal system, a lot of our identity comes from the thing that we do from the output. And that itself creates its own moral entry in the world at large. For me, what was happening was I was very good at the job that I was doing. So, ding, ding, ding ring the bell, you get a prize.

And it wasn’t that the work that I was doing was necessarily evil or hurtful to the world, although you could make the argument in that way. There are plenty of people that I think do good work in the world because they bring their humanity and their values into that experience. The problem was that it was crosswise with my own sense of self. And crosswise is the term that my teacher and friend Parker Palmer uses, which is when the external parts of ourselves are in such conflict with the internal parts of ourselves that we’re in this double bind.

And let’s acknowledge a certain amount of privilege here, to go out into the world and say, “I’m successful and that hurts,” is a complex stance to take, I recognize that. But it would also be dishonest if I didn’t say that that was in fact what was happening. And that the more outward approbation I was getting for being this shell of a person, the worse I felt. And so that, what was it like? It was awful, I mean it was literally the pivot point was February 2nd, 2002 after the 9/11 attacks. I was at the Wall Street subway station considering leaping.

And was only by the grace of God and a phone call to my therapist, Dr. Sayers, that stopped me from doing. And I think in the years since, 23 years, whatever it is, I have settled into being a better human. And the good that I do today stems solely from making that choice at that moment in time.

Kara: So, one of the things you talk about in your book, Reboot, is a concept that listeners of this podcast have heard about a lot called radical self-inquiry, which we might define in different ways. But I’d love to hear how you define it. And then you talk about how it’s critical to professional success, to healthy relationships, so, can you tell us a little bit about what you mean by that term and why it’s so crucial.

Jerry: Sure. I first started using that term maybe 15/18 years ago because I was, honestly, Kara, I was trying to describe something that I was doing but none of the language made sense for me. And I actually paraphrase something that the Buddhist teacher Pema Chodron uses. And the way I describe it is it’s the process by which our self-deception and the masks that we wear are slowly and compassionately, and that last word is really fucking important, compassionately stripped away so that we have no place left to hide.

And what do I mean by that? It’s kind of a mash up between traditional psychoanalytic psychology and what I was trained as a Buddhist in doing, which is a kind of sharp pointing out instructions, kind of goes like this. And if I sound like I’m from Brooklyn, it’s because I am. What the fuck are you doing? My famous question that sort of bounces around the internet all over the place is, how have you been complicit in creating the conditions you say you don’t want? And this is a really importantly organized question, because what I don’t want to trigger is how have you been responsible for the conditions in your life?

Many people are socialized to be guilt sponges and soak up all responsibility for all conditions in their life. That’s not good. But sometimes we help the process along the way the getaway driver helps the bank robbery. Don’t be an accomplice to making your life miserable. And equally important, how does it serve you, because some part of us gets served by even our worst behavior? How does it serve us so that we reveal those things so that we can then make conscious choices?

As you well know, conscious choices about how would I like to live? How would I like to feel about myself? How would I like to engage with another person or relate to money or to the world? And lastly, I would say it’s radical because most of us are socialized to not ask those questions. Most of us are socialized to just live with the consequences of those decisions.

Kara: Yeah, I think listeners to this podcast will have heard a version of this, that is what, how is what you’re thinking, helping to create the returns you’re getting? You put your thinking a certain way and then it’s creating, again, you’re not totally responsible for everything that happens to you, but the way that your thinking is unfortunately sort of boomeranging to produce more of this outcome that you don’t want. And that emphasis on self-compassion is so important, I mean I think for one thing, just being self-compassion is kind of radical.

A lot of people have a lot of self-pity or a lot of self-loathing or a lot of self other things, but self-compassion is neither of those things. It’s neither, oh, you poor baby, everything’s against you, which is what people think it is kind of. Nor is it, sometimes I’ll have women tell me they’re being self-compassionate when they’re actively criticizing themselves. It’s the radical neutrality of, I have compassion for myself as a suffering being. And I’m being honest with myself about what I’m thinking, what I’m feeling, and what I’m doing, and how is that impacting my life.

Jerry: I love that term you just used, radical neutrality because James Baldwin said, “Not everything that is faced can be transformed, but nothing can be transformed until it’s faced.” And I love this notion of radical neutrality that you just used, which is to sort of approach the questions and the struggles from a place of not seeking blame, from a place of seeking agency. Wait, I may not have been responsible for the way I was raised as a munchkin, but I can do something about it.

And even the belief system that I might not be able to do something about it, more often than not, and you talk about this well, may in fact be a service to a system that undermines my own, not only self-compassion, but self-healing and self-growth.

Kara: Yeah. I mean, I think that when you can’t be fully honest with yourself if you’re not compassionate with yourself because you won’t tell yourself the truth. When you have an agenda and you think only certain thoughts or feelings or actions are okay or acceptable, then you don’t get. Just like a kid won’t tell you the truth if you scream at them when they get the wrong answer, you’re not going to get the truth. This is sort of, I think the segue here that I’ll explicitly say is a segue, is that I think part of what we’re talking about is self-leadership and how you lead yourself.

And something that you write a lot about is leadership, not just for yourself, but for people around you. And I really wanted to talk to you about this topic because women have, I think, we were just chatting before this started. The socialization for women is, you’re not inherently a leader. Men are inherently leaders. Women are inherently followers. And if you are going to be a leader, you’ll know you’re ready to be a leader if you always know the right answer and are always going to get it right and not fail, which is an impossible standard.

So, I’d love to hear, what do you think leadership is? How does it relate to radical self-inquiry? Tell us a little bit about that.

Jerry: Well, I think it’s a powerful question, an animating notion. And I wrote about this in my first book, Reboot, an animating notion that I have, is that better humans make better leaders. And that’s a kind of, duh, obvious statement. And yet when you juxtapose the obvious statement against the reality, which is that we have a massive epidemic of toxic leadership and really, really harmful abuses of power.

What you start to see is that this process of becoming a better human is essential if we are going to create a world in which human beings, however they manifest, however they identify, are able to step into a fullness of their own being. That requires human beings, people who hold power to do their work. My teacher and friend, Parker Palmer, has a funny saying. He likes to say, “The unexamined life may not be worth living, but if you choose to take it to live an unexamined life, please don’t take a job that involves other people.”

He’s onto something because what happens is, when you give power to anyone who is socialized to not look under the hood, they spread toxicity around. And speaking as someone who has been socialized as male, I will tell you that there are all sorts of messages of danger that boys receive from a very early age about the danger of looking under the hood. Do not go there because if you go there, laundry list of all the bad things that will happen. And then we give those kids power and chaos ensues.

So, from where I sit, the only way we can redeem those who have power is through this notion of radical self-inquiry, not just for their own sake. Hey, let’s cut your propensity for depression, but most importantly for those around them who have to work with it.

Kara: I would love to talk about what you mean. You said a few times better people make better leaders. And my listeners, especially people socialized as women being like, “Oh my God, I knew it, I’m not a good enough person. I need to become a better person in order to be a good leader.” So, let’s talk about what you mean when you say sort of better people. I think one of the threads we’ve been talking about is people who are more honest with themselves, people who are more self-compassionate.

I’m curious if there’s other adjectives you would add, but I don’t think that you mean sort of more morally virtuous in an objective way, which is what we’ve been socialized to think that word means.

Jerry: Yeah. Well, first of all, if I contribute to that negative self-talk, I apologize, that’s not that, yeah.

Kara: No, I just think, I just know how my people’s brains will look at something like that.

Jerry: Yeah. No. And by the way, it’s also not necessarily better humans, better people are not necessarily ‘more skillful’ in a task. The subtitle of my first book is, Leadership and the Art of Growing Up. That’s a tongue in cheek way of talking about what I’m talking about. I’m talking about being fully grown adults. Fully grown adults take responsibility. My friend Michael Carroll, who is a coach, a mindfulness leadership coach, likes to say, “A good leader cleans up the milk even if they didn’t spill it.”

Kara: Something I’m trying to teach my stepchildren all the time, we’re in a family, we’re all going to contribute to this, even if you didn’t do it.

Jerry: Look at the mess here, clean up this, take care of one another. Be kind. Have self-compassion so that when you get triggered because guess what? We’re all human, we get triggered, you take responsibility. You acknowledge that you may have hurt somebody. You apologize and you endeavor to make amends. You wear clean underwear. You eat your vegetables and you sit up straight.

Kara: This is a broad ranging set of [crosstalk].

Jerry: I mean I’m trying to be funny and relatively simplistic to make this less complicated than our minds can make it. Oh, my God, being a better leader means what? I mean, look, we have political leadership right now. Right now, my lips to God’s ears, we may have a chance at overturning the hegemony of this negative toxic leadership that has been so dominant in this country for well over a decade.

Kara: I think for women, especially because one of the things that I’m actually about to teach a training on, of over-responsibility because I think women are socialized to take too much responsibility for everybody else. But then correspondingly, what they don’t realize is they’re not taking enough responsibility for themselves in some ways. We’re asked to think women are socialized to see taking responsibility for yourself as essentially meaning being really self-critical. I have a lot of women who will come to me and say, “I’m just really self-aware. Here’s a list of all my flaws.” I’m like, “That’s actually not self-awareness, that’s self-criticism.”

Jerry: Right. Well, let’s talk about the Buddhist concept of delusion. Delusion is not actually seeing things as they really are. And you seeing yourself as shitty is kind of delusional. It’s just as delusional as what a grandiose narcissist would say is, only I have the solution. A good word I like is discernment. Can you move through the world with discernment, taking responsibility for the mess that exists in the world? But not necessarily falling into the trap of guilt.

Or even if I have made a mistake, approaching that mistake from a place of remorse and regret, which moves us forward and helps us feel the lesson implicit in it and not the guilt, which starts to self-lacerate and then we’re trapped in this negative loop. And while I recognize that a lot of folks who identify as women are socialized in that way, there are men who also are socialized that way.

Kara: Totally, yeah. And people’s family environments also, I think of it as a Venn diagram. Some men get it from their family, some don’t. Some women get it from their family, some don’t. But then all women get it from society. So, they’ve got a baseline of it, no matter even if their family was totally different. But I think, that point that when you are super self-critical you are delusional in that sense of, you’re flattening yourself the same way as if you see anybody outside of you as being completely good or completely bad. It’s all of that flattening.

And I think when women imagine a leader, they do imagine someone who knows the right answer, knows what to do all the time, and is confident in it all the time. So, I’d love to talk about conflict a little bit because I think lots of people are conflict averse. Women are certainly socialized to be conflict averse and especially in the workplace to sort of want. I mean, it’s something I have worked on myself and in my personal relationships, I’m not conflict averse.

But when I started building out more of a team and having a leadership team, I thought sort of the norm should be that we don’t have any conflict. That’s something I’ve chose in my family and personal relationships to avoid certain kinds of conflict. And it was definitely a big growth moment for me, with our external business support to be like, “It’s okay for the people in this team to have some conflict because that’s what happens when you have humans with different ideas.”

But I’m curious kind of, where do you see, what are common ways that you see people having difficulty as leaders with healthy conflicts, what kind of baggage they’re bringing in and how can people start to reframe that?

Jerry: Well, it’s a great question because I think it is in fact one of the universal misunderstandings of leadership and that leadership is supposed to result in conflict free zones. I’m a fountain of quotes, so here’s another quote. David Richo, the Buddhist psychologist has a wonderful little book called, How to be Adult in Relationship. It’s part of his, How To Be An Adult series. It’s A great series. And his quote from the former book is, “To be adult in relationship is not to be conflict free, it’s to resolve conflicts mindfully.”

And if we want to talk about both adulting skills and leadership skills, and where the Venn diagram there is, it’s the ability to resolve conflicts mindfully. It’s the ability to say, “Oh, wait, my bad. The thing you were saying, I wasn’t really listening because it kind of triggered all this bullshit inside of me. So can we start over and can you tell me again what your idea is?” or whatever it is that’s the source of the conflict, you’re right. Many people are socialized to, either avoid conflict or dampen it down as quickly as possible.

I remember working with a team, a senior leadership team and we were all together in a meeting and I was just observing at this point, one of the things I will do. and something happened once, then twice and the third time and what it was, tension was rising in the group. They were talking about new ideas. There were cross ideas. And somebody made a joke. And I pointed this out and the CEO slapped his forehead and said, “Oh, my God, it’s like Sunday afternoon at my family.” Every time something uncomfortable would arise, somebody would make a joke.

Now, we don’t think of that as conflict avoidance, but it is. It’s getting a little hot in here.

Kara: Yeah. Let me diffuse and distract.

Jerry: Right. Or people please or shrink in my own self, versus getting curious about it. Is there a point of curiosity that can happen? So, you asked about healthy conflict. There’s a lovely phrase we use at our company when we teach these skills and that is, “When the going gets tough, turn to wonder. When the heat starts to rise, can you get curious?” Now, I can say I find it easier to do in groups than I do in my romantic relationship, but that’s a good adulting skill.

Kara: Yeah. I think when we talk a lot on this podcast about the importance of curiosity when you’re doing your own self-reflective work, we just jump to judgment. We jump to shame. And we do that with other people, we jump to judgment or we jump to assumptions instead of curiosity. One of the things that was coming up for me as you talked is that I think another problem that women sometimes have in leadership is that we’ve been socialized to think that everyone should agree and get along.

And if you are really a leader, if you are a CEO, for example, there’s going to be times that your leadership team doesn’t agree or you agree with one of them and not the others and you’re going to have to make that decision. And I’ve had even my own thoughts thinking that means I’m pulling rank. And then I have to really coach myself to be like, “Well, yeah, I am the CEO, so I have to make this decision.” So that is a rank, but that’s okay. But I think that because women are socialized to avoid hierarchy, we’re trying to cover it up and then we also act.

When you are not willing to acknowledge something, you end up acting crazier about it than otherwise. So, you end up being more irrational or more reactive or more impulsive or whatever else, because you’re uncomfortable with the whole dynamic. And so, I think there’s a lot of important work to do for women CEOs or women team leaders in uncovering how were you socialized around hierarchy or being in charge or getting to make a decision that someone else disagrees with. Why is that so uncomfortable for you?

That’s often very uncomfortable for people socialized as women, not only, but especially to not only make a decision, but make a decision that someone else is going to be upset with and let that be a thing that’s happening. That a person may leave a meeting and you didn’t resolve it into consensus. They are upset about the decision you made.

And I mean, I coach on this in personal relationships too. What if it’s true that your husband does find that annoying and he still loves you and wants to be married to you? Can you allow for him to find that annoying just like you find shit about him annoying but still love him and want to be married to him?

Jerry: Right. I think in a sense, you’ve worked into the spot that makes the most sense, which is the possibility of having multiple feelings, whether it’s in a group or whether in a relationship or even within ourselves. I was really curious about, I have my own answer to the question, but I’m curious to hear your answer. From the way in which you were socialized, what is wrong with hierarchy?

Kara: I think the socialization, there’s two different areas. There’s gender socialization and there’s progressive socialization, leftist socialization kind of. So, the gender socialization is, no, there’s hierarchy, but women aren’t at the top of it. Men are natural leaders and women are natural followers, and men make decisions and then women follow them out. And so, I think obviously this stuff is changing but even when I was growing up 40 years ago, who plays the CEO in all the movies? It’s mostly a man.

And if it’s a woman, then it’s a big point of interest that she’s a CEO, and she’s probably unmarried and has 12 dogs or whatever, is cruel, Cruella de Vil. There’s something weird about her. And that’s just one example, but I think, so there’s a general, there are authorities, but you’re not the authority. And then there’s this, authorities are correct because women are socialized, the way that you stay safe and good is you just do what you’re told and follow the path that the authorities tell you to do.

And then that ends up backfiring, when women decide they want to be their own authority, they associate authority with correctness. Then, if they’re not sure they’re correct, then they can’t be the authorities. They get stuck in that whirlpool. And then there’s a separate strain, I think, that not all, but a lot of my listeners probably also experience, which is a kind of more of a political socialization that you maybe get when you’re a little bit older around hierarchies being inherently oppressive and a sort of structurally Marxist power differential of the person with power is bad.

Power is used to oppress, decision making is power. So, I think there’s multiple strands. And one of the things you just said that I kind of love as a place for us to land is, it’s not just multiple conflicting feelings or thoughts in a group, in a relationship. It’s even in yourself, sometimes you’re going to have those multiple strands. And I think that the perfectionism that I see so much in my clients, but I have to know the right way to think or the right way.

I had somebody come on a coaching call the other day and be like, “Well, I have this problem and our company has two solutions, but they both seem feminist in different ways. So, I don’t know which one to do, what’s the right one?” And I’m like, “There’s no right. I don’t have a checklist we can do where we determine which one of these is more a feminist and therefore more right.” There’s no right way to do it or right way to feel the black and whiteness of that thinking of there’s a right thought, there’s a right belief. I should have one feeling, it should all cohere is so at odds with the messiness of being a human.

Jerry: Yeah. And it’s actually quite constraining and it limits creativity and spontaneity and it limits love in an organizational structure. I was fascinated by your response. I have two thoughts that come into mind. The first is, I remember a client socialized as male, hoodie wearing, tech bro, who when I would say, “Well you need to actually hold on to the vision of what this organization is supposed to be. Someone has to hold that.” And he would say, “But I don’t want to be that guy.” And I said, “What guy?” He goes, “You know, that guy, the asshole, the one who tells everybody what to do.” So, there’s that image.

And then my wife, who’s also my co-founder, Ally Schultz, uses horses in her leadership work. And one of the things she taught me was that the leader of a herd of horses, which is usually a mare, is picked based on who has the most empathetic awareness of what’s actually happening in the herd. Not, who’s the biggest and strongest stallion that’s going to fight off the wolves. And I think that that’s a really fascinating notion, because what we’re talking about is that the leader is not the one who has the right answers.

The leader, Peter Drucker, who is the most revered leadership consultant of the 20th century, used to say, “The leader is the one who knows how to ask the right questions. And right isn’t just the performative one, it’s the one that’s going to elicit the best collaborative response from the group.” It’s actually a felt sense. So, rather than falling for the lie of hierarchy means power over and power under and in many situations it does. There’s no question about that.

There is a settling that can occur in the herd, if you will, when people understand, okay, I’ve got this responsibility. You’ve got that responsibility. In this instance, I’m the leader. In that instance, you’re the leader and we’re going to work collaboratively together so that we can actually move the entire enterprise forward.

Kara: Yeah, we can probably have another whole conversation about how people who strike out as entrepreneurs then have to learn to be CEOs, which is the exact opposite mindset. Because an entrepreneur, you’re like, “Great, I have seven million ideas, and I want these all to happen and then as a leader.” But I love the horse example because I’ve done a bunch of, bunch of, maybe four times, I’ve done equine coaching as the client. And horses also very much respond to authenticity and performative-ness.

I think I’ve talked about this on the podcast before, but the first time I did it, I was very in my head about needing to show, I was in a mastermind where I was kind of at the top of the ‘group’ in terms of revenue. I was actually closer to the person leading it than everybody else. And I had a lot of mental drama about needing this to go a certain way to show how evolved I was. And the horse was like, “Fuck you.”

Jerry: They’re not going to hear anything of it.

Kara: I don’t know what’s going on. She wasn’t even like, “Fuck you.” She was just like, “Oh, you’re here. I don’t care, I’m not interested in you at all.”

Jerry: They disregard the untruths.

Kara: Yeah. And then I did it a few years later and I was in a very different headspace and I was able to get the horse, standing with my eyes closed, get the horse to run when I wanted it to, and stop when I wanted it to. It was such a difference. And then I mean, they’re wild. I did a session once also where I was working on relationship stuff and I’m trying to embrace more intimacy. And the horse, I have a hilarious picture of me sitting in a chair and this 1,000 pound horse is trying to sit in my lap. It is on top of me. So, anybody who’s not done equine coaching, I cannot offer that on the internet, but it is amazing and you should all do it.

Jerry: Well, my wife has four horses and we use them all the time. She uses them all the time in the work.

Kara: I mean, we’re looking at getting a place upstate and I feel my poor husband doesn’t know what’s coming. It’s equine [crosstalk]. So anyway, we could talk about so many things, but if you were going to kind of distill it in the opposite of all the complexity we just talked about, if you could have one thing you wanted the listeners to take away from this interview about leadership, what would it be?

Jerry: It’s the humanity of it. The more I have worked with clients myself and the more I have done my work, the more human that I have allowed myself to be, the more humane the organizations become. And I’ll say this, the world is hurting really, really badly. We have children killing children because we don’t know what to do with these violent impulses, and let’s just arm ourselves to the teeth.

And there is an opportunity for those of us who hold power to actually do the morally right thing and lean in to being kind, so you don’t maximize profit. Who the fuck cares? So, you don’t squeeze out that last drop of oil from the Earth. I mean, what is it that we manifested on this Earth for if not to be kind?

Kara: And I think to ourselves, I think that’s a prescription for every woman listening to this, everybody of any gender, but I think women in particular are socialized to be inhumane to themselves, to withhold food, withhold water. Don’t pee when you have to because you should be working, to beat themselves up and berate themselves. Your humanity towards other people is going to start with your humanity towards yourself. You can play act being nice to other people when you’re not nice to yourself.

But that true compassion, that true connection has to start with yourself, because if you don’t have it with yourself, then you don’t even know what it is that you’re trying to offer to other people.

Jerry: Amen. Well said.

Kara: So where can people find your book, find more about you if they want to learn more?

Jerry: Reboot.io is the website, that’s for all things Reboot, the company related. And then there are links to both books. My latest book is Reunion: Leadership and a Longing to Belong, in which I look at the question of what is a leader’s responsibility in a world where babies are shooting babies in high school? What is our responsibility? And newsflash, we have a moral responsibility to do something. So, both books, you can find links to both books, links to our podcast, the Reboot podcast, all that’s on that one website, reboot.io.

Kara: And we’ll put that in the show notes. So definitely if you are a CEO or a leader, go get the book. But honestly, I think everything we’ve been talking about relates to how do you lead yourself, in your relationships, in your family. We’re all leaders in some way and all these concepts are relevant. Thanks so much for coming on.

Jerry: Thanks for having me, Kara.

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